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 Betreff des Beitrags: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Mo 30. Nov 2015, 15:31 
Erstligist
Erstligist
Registriert: Sa 10. Okt 2009, 12:51
Beiträge: 415
Wohnort: Leverkusen
HC-Username: Tommi
Dear all,

I hope you are fine these days.

I finally had some hours (over the whole Weekend) to enjoy the new game on PS4 together with friends and allone.

As in previous years it has been a tough challenge to get to know the whole Features/mistakes/specialties of the game.
But after having had a Hand on it, I feel ready to give some direct Feedback to the gameplay, graphics and Overall game design.



1) graphics
First of all: the game's graphic does not look like a current gen/ next gen, nor like an interesting PS3/XBOX 360 game.
on the pitch, it Looks rather like a PS2 game. besides the Action on the field, it has some nice graphics to offer, such as the crowd which is "fully animated" and 3D.


but the Overall look-a-like is more linked to the Action, the movement on the pitch.
compared to neutron's work (Handball Challenge) all animations look crappy and very stiff.
whereas in previous (so called) Versions all player's Joints (especially elbows) seem to work, there seem to be None in this years Handball game.
during a jump shot the whole arm Looks very "hard". no elastics. no realistic movement.
however, jumping and so on Looks ok.
graphics have never been important to me.
besides the "shot" Animation... they are important. they are the key element to an intense experience of a "real" gameplay.

the menues and Overall game design is ok. sharp resolutions and some (un)necessary Details (e.g. reflecting floor)


2) Menue & Game Content
coming to the menue and game Content ...
well, game Content has a direct influence on the menue and vice versa...

as there is almost no menue existent, there seems to be no depth in this game at all.
or.... as there are only few modes and Options there is no menue. call it whatever you want.


BUT, there is one Point, which I personally (and everyone I talked to as well) think is the worst someone can do is: no explanations at ALL.

not that you ("EKO") don't give a hint which Buttons the CUSTOMER (YES; we all paid Money for that!!!!) has to use - there is indeed a hidden menue, where you can find Buttons you can use - but there is simply NO Explanation behind.

there is NO WORD AT ALL about the aiming circle which appears in the Goal while you're attempting to shoot a Goal. There is no explanation about the rules of the game (did you ever think about players who don’t know Handball rules!?), no explanation how to change systems / tactical moves (dt. “Spielzüge”), no explanations how to substitute and when to do!?!?
From that point of view this is this game is purely the biggest disappointment I have ever had in my “gaming life”.

summarized, one simple example from my side:
if I am working on something (e.g. a presentation or a summary), I always ask myself: does the audience (in your case the gamer) understand what I am targeting at!?
Is everything comprehensible!? Are there some logical errors in the game. What kind of questions could be raised?

And in your case it was a very easy thing (just some examples):
- how about some INTERESTING statistics?! Which player scored most in how many attempts!?
- why don’t you just put some screenshots in a menue with a short explanation of what happens during a jump shot (e.g. how you aim with the circle)!???
- carreer mode: why is everything around your player so unimportant!?!? No statistics, no living at all!!!

That all above is… the easiest thing. From a gaming development point of view “statistics” like “COUNT GOAL PLAYER ABC” should really be beginner level.
Sorry, my words sound so cruel… just imagine I would have used much more appropriate words in German.

And besides… why can’t you chose the jersey colour!? In so many games the teams had very similar jersey colours!!!

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Mo 30. Nov 2015, 15:31 
Erstligist
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Registriert: Sa 10. Okt 2009, 12:51
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Wohnort: Leverkusen
HC-Username: Tommi
3) Gameplay

There are basically two sections in this paragraph:
A) Movement & reaction to my button-smashing
B) Gameplay

To A) the movement of a player (running) is ok and comprehensible. If I push a button the player reacts. If I press CIRCLE the player shoots (somehow everywhere around the goal). If I press “sprint”, the player runs much faster.

To B) phew. Well, now it gets interesting…

Let’s start with the basics: why the heck did you decide to change the shooting system!? Everytime when I am shooting I need to decide which button I should use and consequently (because there are a lot of options) I often push the wrong buttons.
For me, this is the worst development of all in this series. IHF HC was so self-understanding. Either you jump first and shoot then or you directly shoot without jumping.
In addition to that there were some alternative standing shots (hip shots) or jumping shots (e.g. “lob” or “bouncer”). While you were jumping you could still decide where you aim the aiming circle and which shot you chose.
With this new version you do the opposite of simplifying. It just loads a big challenge on the player’s shoulder: whatever you do, you need to decide immediately!!!
But… anyway. It works. It’s just not my favorit because I doubt that this is the future (you do not have any possibility to do a “lob” or a “bouncer” in this game then!!!).

Passing:
it works. It is not ease and there are sometimes some errors but it’s ok. Also here the alternative “passes” are missing…

Aiming:
how the heck can you aim in this game!?!? Sometimes the aiming circle is very small, sometimes you can just see it for a very small moment but then it is also very big… absolutely not comprehensible at all. I even tried with friends some excercises where there was almost no defense, so there was no one in the way to block the shot or to block the view on the goal.
No influence. Mikkel Hansen still, from 9 or 10m, threw the ball either on the Goalkeeper or around the goal. Only in rare cases I had the impression that the aiming circle staid longer and was much smaller!
We even asked ourselves if we need to push the shot-buttons twice or longer so that the accuracy is affected. But also here… not really comprehensible.
That’s really cruel. You play a game to win against your competitor (computer or friend) and therefore you need to score. But here is no real possibility to throw the ball in the way you want it. In one game (10 minutes) you score 12 times. In another game there is only 2 points on your side…
HOW!?

Defense:
Defense is a lot of fun for the guy in defense. Nearly everytime you’re in the defense you can provoke an offensive foul!!!! If that’s not the case you can really easily block the shots. But in no way it works to “attack” the player with ball possession. If you “push” him it automatically leads to a 2min suspension…
Absolutely not comprehensible. You need to decide what you want to put into focus: attack or defense!!??

Speed of the game:
hey… I know handball is a fast game with a lot of decision you need to take within less than a second… but this is not working for a virtual game. No one is able to decide so soon (especially with this difficult button settings).
Especially when you’re sprinting you are faster than lightning and everything else is also ridiculously fast. You step outbound so easily or you are standing in the goal keeper’s area without any problem…
Besides that… there is one problem: you cannot foresee anything! You simply cannot see where the defense is going… you cannot see where the goalkeeper is going. You cannot see anything – BUT you have to decide!
Please please: reduce the game’s velocity! With that you would help us all alot! Also on the tactical things (Spielzüge) you would help. Right now the tactical’s are difficult to manage because you run so quickly and have to push the passing button so quickly after each other without considering the defense’s moves.
Same is valid for the goal attempt.
Everything is so quick and you cannot really see whats going on… neither can you see where the block/defense is standing nor where the goalkeeper is going.
You cannot even see the aiming circle…!!!

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Mo 30. Nov 2015, 15:31 
Erstligist
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Registriert: Sa 10. Okt 2009, 12:51
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Wohnort: Leverkusen
HC-Username: Tommi
Realism:
The game is not really realistic.
It obviously does not necessarily need to be realistic. But anyway in some points it needs to be improved!
e.g. how can it happen that you touch a player (when you’re in defense) and you automatically get a suspension!? How can the goalie be so unbelievably strong?
How can it be that more than 30% of the goal attempts are not even on the goal!!!?
All in all, the whole game is very “close”… everything is very narrow. I would suggest that you draw the backline a bit to the back. That would make the whole “action” a little more clear…
Also, it seems that the more far you are away from the goal, the more inaccuracy is there for goal attempts…


Tactics:
The tactics……
They are the core. The one and only thing to destroy a defense…
it is brilliant. Simply brilliant. Very easy and comprehensible though sometimes very near the defense line (offensive fouls!) or very very quick passes necessary!
It is the heart of the game!
Especially the slow motion goal attempts when shooting from the right position is brilliant!!! Absolutely gorgeous!
If I remember right this is exactly what I said in so many of my posts in the past years ;-P



So… what shall I say!`? it can be a very very good game, when:
- you explain what is necessary to score (including right aiming and shot power). Just an easy walkthrough!!!
- you decrease the goalie’s strength
- you decrease the velocity
- insert jersey selection before the game starts
- the aiming system needs to be simplified
- the goalie needs to be downgraded
- may be some interesting statistics!?



BUGS:
Only one bug so far… during carreer mode my attributes are not adopted into the pre match settings…
I did a lot of improvement on attributes but when I start a match I still have 50.0 as rating!


I am… really in love with this game but it is so frustrating that the easy things don’t work!

That’s why I am so confident that you can very easily improve this game :)

Please take care, guys!!!


by the way... i Play it on PS4


Regards,
Tommi

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Di 1. Dez 2015, 12:01 
Erstligist
Erstligist
Registriert: Sa 10. Okt 2009, 12:51
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Wohnort: Leverkusen
HC-Username: Tommi
some additional points I forgot to mention:

I) 1 on 1…
It is very intransparent how all that 1 on 1 with the right stick works. I “dodge” in one direction by using the right stick… and next time when I want to do the same the player simply turns around himself but I don’t know why…
That is… all in all not very comprehensible.
Also the dodging only works when you start to run. If you try to do this move while standing nothing happens.

After starting to run the player does the dodging move…
It would be very good and helpful to have a consistency here as well. Something you already had in HC!?!?!?

By the way, using the right stick is very easy and I like it (if it works correctly) that’s what I wanted to have back then as well 


II) Shoting area…
It is very obvious that EKO implemented “imaginary” or “invisible” scoring areas for each position on the field…
Unfortunately this does not, in any way, reflect the scoring area in reality…

How I understand it works:

The closer you get to the goal (right in front of a defense player) the more your “shot accuracy” bar fills.
There are several status:
a. bar not filled – no accuracy at all… that is valid for almost the whole pitch. No matter where you stand, the ball will go outbound!!!
b. bar slightly filled in red – a bit more accuracy, anyway, very often outbound (but you can sometimes no move the aiming circle)
c. bar filled noticeable in yellow – more accuracy. You can now see the aiming circle very clear and move it around. The circle is getting smaller.
d. car filled completely in green – most accuracy (besides slow-motion). You can move the aiming circle pretty clear and the circle is very small.

I understand you wanted to do something equivalent to the Basketball games… but that doesn’t work so easily. Handball is a very accurate sport when it comes to shooting/ scoring.
Very good player throw wherever they want even from a far distance. May be there is a slight difference between standing shot and jump shot.
But not very noticeable.
You (EKO) are now basically saying that players cannot throw accurate when +9m away from goal… and that’s purely nonsense…
Behind 12 meters, probably quite inaccurate but around 10 meters there is almost 100% accuracy.

What should influences accuracy (in the game):
- Is the player sprinting
- is the player looking in the right direction (or does he need to turn around)
- does the player use a special shot? (may be like that: stand shot= 100%, jump shot=95%, hip shot/jump hip shot=90%, fake [jump] hip shot/ Abknickwurf = 85%)

The success of a shot is automatically influenced by all the rest:
- is there a defense player blocking ?! if the defense is not blocking there is no influence on accuracy
- the longer the distance to goal, the more time a goalkeeper has to react

III) Goal-Keeper
Could you please change the goal keeper’s behavior!?
It is not realistic that a goal-keeper reacts to all shots!!!

In a lot of cases the goal-keeper jumps into one direction. Sometimes he’s right, sometimes not.
The keeper decides according to following:
- where is the defense/ block
- what’s the attack player’s position on the field (more distance = more reacting, closer distance = anticipation)

Especially on 7m that is really nuts… I think in all my attempts (>20 attempts) I only scored once against the computer… that is… not really comprehensible…


I know you’re guys are doing a very good job!!!
I am so glad that there is now further progress in this game… although I am a bit frustrated that neutron is not the main developer…
You guys were always listening to us “fanbase”


Please talk to EKO. They need to react to “us”… (right now only me :D)


I know that my ideas have never been bad :-P


Take care guys!!!

Hope this version was quite successful so far!!!


Best wishes,
Tommi

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Do 3. Dez 2015, 20:19 
Global Mod
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Registriert: So 26. Apr 2009, 18:26
Beiträge: 1833
HC-Username: neutronius
Hello Tommi,

welcome back to the board and once again thank you very much for your detailed and constructive feedback. We also believe that Eko Software introduced some quite interesting ideas. Rest assured that we will take your feedback into account when it comes to planning a follow-up version. We will need to wait how Handball 16 will be doing during the next weeks until we can move forward with the next steps. If anybody else is still stoping by here, please feel free to leave your feedback. We will read everything carefully and gather all the issues to support Eko Software and Bigben when it comes to planning the feature improvements for the following version.

Best wishes,
Neutron.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Do 3. Dez 2015, 21:33 
Platzwart
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Registriert: Fr 22. Apr 2011, 13:54
Beiträge: 40
HC-Username: Joern97
Hello,
after a couple of years off from this forum I wanted to post something, too.
First of all, I agree with all points Tommy listed, except for the game speed. I like it how is, even if I went into the "circle" or "goalie room/area" (or however you want to call it in English) sometimes. Have to get the timing right... Practice makes perfect.

But first things first: After I bought and downloaded it via Steam, I had a rought start with the game. As someone how basically never used the playbook (let call it like that) in the previous games, I had problems the first matches until I was able to score consistantly. It's really a shame that there is no tutorial. Also, there is no way to change the controls. Like what the fuck? Such basic things... I missed the special throws and passes, but I was like: Ok, in previous games I felt like the game has some much features but non of them are (perfectly) working (you can throw a lob from 10 meters out, and the only way the goalie saved it was to force him to save it, without an real animaton, or when you do a bouncer, the players always react like tha ball fell to the ground) .... But no tutorial, after you changed the controls completly, and you can't even adjust them... Come one now.

But ok, after I rage quitted like three times because I had no idea how to score, I start to play against myself, so there is no defense interfering me all the time, and I learned it makes it much easiar to use some of those moves of out the playbook. And, after I got into it a little more, I was able to average like 25 goals in a 20 minute game. Thats like it was in the previous Handball Challenges.

Let's move on... Let's talk a little about the feeling of the game. I feel like, you can't play the game as free as you could before. Not only because I miss some shots, but other shots are only avaible from time to time- It took me a quit amount of games until I understood, I can perfom a spin-shot (Dreher), but ONLY when I shoot it from the outside. I guess it makes sense, since most of the time the wingers are performing the spin shots, and the goalie doesn't really move the right way to perfom a spin shot, when you are free in the middle of the field (he doesn't move forward to you to make the shootes angle worse). Or if you are puching someone in the air, the player doesn't even react to that. The only thing that changes from when he is not puched is that you get a penalty for it. The games is just not as free/interactive as it was. A fact you can also see from those shots: I bet if there was a way to make a jumping hip shot in the previous games, you would have to jump first and then you the game would gave you the possibilty to decide if you want to shoot normal or not. Why do I have to decide that before, and yes I know Tommy mentioned it before... I still don't get it.
Another part is the defense. There is kind of no way to stop the opponent from scoring a goal, but blocking the shot or spamming the RB button (I play on PC with controller) and hoping someone runs into you so they make a offensive foul. If you push him, you get a penalty, and a there is no way to hold him. Why did they take that out of the game. MAYBE this is good because if I find a way to stop the opponent consistantly, I'm probably back at winning every game with 10 goal like it was in the previous games. Still, they could get a chance to beat me somehow, but I just don't like the way it's solved here. But, we all know thats a hard topic... Look at the NHL franchise: Exist since 1990 or something, and the way this game makes it hard is a shit defense of your AI and are ridiculouse good shot of the opponent's AI.

Another thing, which kind of kills it for me from time to time: Why are the wingers in the middle of the field, and not on the outside, were they belong. How often did I have one of those slow motion shots seeing I will get blocked and wishing there was a player on the outside I just have to pass to and then he has the opportunity to score. In the current postions, it would make more sense to let an Left Back player play the Left Wing, same with the right. They only shoot from the Backfield anyways.

Ok complained enough: I feel like EKO made a good game, especially for me as handballer... I only pointed out bad sides, but I just don't know what I really like about the game. Just the game itself does work, there are some mistakes in it, but the game works! It makes fun! So I want to say thank you, EKO, for bringing a good game, with some downside which are hopefully gonna get fixed.

However, I have to questions: Is there are known bug, where PC users (Steam users) don't have numbers and names on the jerseys? I have no idea why this is, and haven't seen it in youtube videos or anything. Never read about it either.

Greetings


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Mo 7. Dez 2015, 11:43 
Erstligist
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Registriert: Sa 10. Okt 2009, 12:51
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Wohnort: Leverkusen
HC-Username: Tommi
hey...

where is the patch?!

I am waiting since the 4th now...
it was promised on your officiel Webpage on PS4!!!

;P

Neutron, what is your Impression of the game?
do you have some Special advices of how to score easily!?

what is EKO's Feedback and self-assesment!?


did they receive our Feedback already?

regards,
Tommi

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: feedback on handball 16
BeitragVerfasst: Fr 11. Dez 2015, 16:13 
Global Mod
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Registriert: So 26. Apr 2009, 18:26
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HI Tommi,

Update is available now but mostly content stuff. Your feedback is huge so at the moment to much to comment every point. In this version we are just a bit included in the developing process. We should get more involvement then gameplay could be improved significant.


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